305 | Data Over Ego: Pivoting & Listening to Customer Feedback | with Jim Phillips

Jim Phillips

You really just have to use the data over your ego and go with what is working. 

Chase Clymer

Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. 

On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating  real results. 

I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. 

Today, I'm welcoming the show Jim Phillips. Jim is the co-founder and CEO of Graymatter, the makers of Bright Mind, the first drinkable ADHD supplement. Jim, welcome to the show. 

Jim Phillips

Thanks for having me. 

Chase Clymer

I'm excited to get into it. All right. So Bright Mind, talk to me about this product quickly before we go back in time. You're just like, what is it? So people understand the product and what we're going to end up talking about. 

Jim Phillips

Yeah. So it's a drinkable ADHD supplement. It's a combination of 27 active ingredients, so tropics, adaptogens, and it really helps you focus. And people take it in place of prescription stimulants or to take less prescription stimulants. 

Chase Clymer

Absolutely. Well, take me back in time. 

Where did the idea for this product come from? 

Jim Phillips

So I was an entrepreneur at a really young age. I was 26 and I was in over my head. I didn't know what I was doing. 

And like many people, I started taking prescription stimulants, started drinking too much coffee and thinking that that was going to help me get ahead. And ultimately, it led to lots of anxiety, lots of burnout and not a lot of success. And so I started to think, there's got to be a better way for this. 

And I started studying how to have better periods, longer periods of productivity naturally. And I did two things. I started meditating, learned how to meditate. Those are very, very impactful for me. And then I learned that no tropics and adaptations of plant-based substances can actually help your cognition in a very functional manner. 

So I read up a lot about that and used it for myself and it was really successful. This was maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago. 

And when I would talk about it, it was just really obvious that people had no idea what I was talking about. They didn't know what a no-tropic was and kind of looked at me crazy. So I knew from that point, there was an opportunity to help spread the awareness of this. 

But to take you back to how I actually started doing this as a brand, prior to Graymatter, I was on the founding team at a company called Charm.io. Charm tracks every direct consumer brand in the world. It's basically a database of Shopify brands and other platforms. 

And now the reason that's interesting is because they're actually kind of hard to detect for the incumbent data warehouses. Like the Zoom infos of the world have trouble identifying Shopify stores. So the founder of that company built the technology to detect it. 

I helped build the go-to-market plan for Charm, did all the customer-facing activity. We're a really small team, but we grew it up to seven figures in revenue and then actually sold it to an Ecommerce aggregator in New York, an Ecommerce SaaS aggregator in New York called Swiftline. And then I stayed on to run Charm for that company. 

So I was spending all my time analyzing direct-to-consumer brands and it just made me really want to start one on my own. 

And so I’ve always had this idea that the awareness of plant-based supplementation could really work for focus if people just had more access to it and knew more about it. 

So, I teamed up with a PhD molecular biologist and we started formulating the combination of the greens that ultimately became Bright Mind around 2021 and we launched in 2022.

Chase Clymer

Talk to me about that timeline a little bit more though. 

So when you decided to go all-in on building your own business and taking the concept that eventually became Bright Mind as the product, how long did it take you to go from like, “Alright, I'm going to do this,” to “I have a sample.” 

Jim Phillips

Yeah. It was really hard to find the right supplier. There's a ton of co-manufacturers out there. There’s companies that advertise themselves trying to make it look like it's a get rich thing, make a supplement and from this you're going to make millions of dollars. It was cognizant of that. 

I wanted to make sure we found the right partner. It took a while and it's going pretty well, but that, I think, was the longest period to get to the sample and find the right partner. That maybe took a few months and also just working on what exactly we wanted to put in it. It was really important to us that we made something that you could feel and feel quickly. 

There's other supplements out there that have similar claims to ours but I'm biased obviously, but there is an objective difference. We have 3X more ingredients than the next closest competitor. So it was important to us that it really worked and we worked with the PhD to formulate it. Finally got our manufacturer on board that we partnered with. 

And from there, the samples actually came pretty quickly. So we tested with ourselves and also with focus groups for over a period of probably 3-4 months, and then ultimately landed on the formula that we have today. 

Chase Clymer

How many conversations did you have with different manufacturers before you found the right one? 

Jim Phillips

Man, probably eight. And we looked at a bunch of others. I think that there's business in the yelp of a contract manufacturer, right? Because there's no feedback on whether or not the customers like them or how organized they are or what their turnaround times are or what their prices are compared to other people. 

You have to go and figure it out yourself and make a spreadsheet and track what you like and don't like about them. I don't know if that exists. If it does, somebody could send it to me. 

But it’s kind of a black box when it comes to finding your manufacturing partners. 

Chase Clymer

Yeah, it comes up quite often on this show. And definitely, heck, even on Reddit, I'll see people getting burned by their manufacturer. And the first question was, how many did you look at? They're like, “I went with the first one.” It's like, “No, you never do that.” 

Jim Phillips

“Oh, you can do this? Great. All right.” I mean... 

Chase Clymer

Yeah, that's not the best way to do it. 

Alright. So you've got a great partner. You've got a great partner and great products you believe that you've iterated on and you've tested. 

So walk me through the go-to-market and the launch strategy. How did you put this thing out into the world? 

Jim Phillips

Yeah. So we tried to launch it with friends and family and social media and get UGC-style shares. And it didn't really work. It had been a slow roll when we started.

We ultimately, after a few months of that and getting the product out, we ultimately started working on Meta and generating sales off of Meta ads. I had zero experience with it. We did end up getting some help just from people that I knew in the industry that had worked on Meta. 

But that's how we made our first sales. 

Ultimately, we ended up launching subscriptions, which was a big help for us in terms of generating consistent revenue. We launched subscriptions in probably summer of 2022. And from there, it definitely started to increase. And we got it to people that are outside of our bubble, our friends and family bubble. 

And we started getting really, really good feedback, people telling us that the product was changing their life and just really saying astonishing things, things that to me, I didn't expect, but was obviously happy to hear. 

And then the retention of our subscribers was very good. Into our third and fourth month, we were maintaining 65% of the monthly cohorts. So that to me was a really big indicator that we probably have something here. Those people were speaking with their dollars and continuing to buy the product and also telling us things that were very, very positive.

Chase Clymer

Hey, Shopify store owners. Have you ever wondered if your store is leaving money on the table? Imagine increasing sales without spending more money on ads. Sounds too good to be true. Well, it's not.

I'd like to introduce you to StoreTester. StoreTester is a done-for-you conversion rate optimization service for Shopify merchants. 

Could your store benefit from increased conversion rates, higher average order values, and improved revenue per visitor? StoreTester could be the perfect partner for you. From ideation to implementation, this full service A-B testing service takes all of the guesswork out of improving Shopify stores.

Stortester does all the work for you while offering month-to-month transparent fixed pricing. It gets even better. They believe in their service so much they're offering the first test for free for qualified merchants. 

Let me repeat, the first test is free for qualified merchants. Curious to see if you qualify for a free test? Reach out today. Visit stortester.com to schedule an intro call.

That's www.S-T-O-R-E-T-E-S-T-E-R.com. Schedule an intro call today to see if you qualify for a free test. 

Hey everybody, today's podcast is brought to you by Intelligems, the ultimate profit optimization tool for Shopify merchants. I'm telling you this, obviously, you know I own an agency. We use Intelligems when we're running split testing and CRO stuff for all of our clients. 

Are you looking to maximize your profits? IntelliGems offers data-driven solutions to optimize your content, prices, discounts, and shipping rates. Join over 500 happy clients who have seen significant improvements.

With Intelligems, you gain control over your Ecommerce economics, boosting your profit per visitor by an astonishing 36%. 

But that's not all. Intelligems users report a 54.62% increase in revenue per visitor and a remarkable rise in conversion rates. 

How does Intelligems do it? Through a suite of tools that allows you to A-B test everything on your Shopify store, from landing pages to product prices and shipping rates. 

Imagine testing new layouts, offers, even a new Shopify theme with ease. 

We're testing a new landing page for our client on a new theme versus an old landing page on their old theme right now. 

Intelligems empowers you to find the perfect price point for your products and optimize your shipping strategy. 

But there's more. Boost your average order value with customized campaign offers and discover if your customers prefer free shipping or a lower list price. 

With over $100 million in incremental profit generated, billion transactions ran through their software. They have over 400 million shoppers that have gone through their tests. 

Intelligems is not a tool. It's a game changer for your business. 

Are you ready to transform your Shopify store's profitability? Book a demo today at intelligems.io. Empower your brand to reach new heights. 

Again, that's intelligems.io. Intelligems, giving superpowers to your customer acquisition, retention, and overall profitability.

Chase Clymer

By the way, everybody, we met at Shop Talk in Chicago.Every time I have a guest that I meet at a conference, I say, “Go to conferences. They are great to meet awesome people.” 

When we were there, you had mentioned... Well, there's two things that I remember from our conversation. So I guess the first one I want to talk about was why you decided to go all in on this business because you were building this in tandem with running... You're having a full-time job essentially. 

So talk to us a bit about what led you to make that decision to go all in on this? Then I've got a follow-up question about pivoting who you thought your customer would be versus who they actually ended up being. 

Jim Phillips

So it's a bit of a unique story. But I started getting sick in August of last year. And I had a fever every day. I had night sweats that were crazy. I had muscle aches. I was just super fatigued. And it ultimately went on for 72 days straight. 

Towards the end of that, I was seeing cancer specialists. There were numerous doctors that I went to. No one could figure out what was wrong with me. Everyone kept telling me that I had a virus and that I just had to wait it out. 

I'm sitting there thinking, “It's been too much. How much longer do you want me to wait?” But I literally thought I was going to die towards the end of this because no one had any answers. 

And I ended up getting a blind spot in my right eye. I went to an eye doctor, a retina specialist and ultimately, he identified that there was bacteria in my eye and through that, I guess it's a very good indicator of something called endocarditis which is an infection in your heart. So, I somehow had an infection in my heart. 

I still actually don't know how I got it but you know, once I finally figured out what was wrong with me, it was ecstatic. I was really happy but by the time I got to the hospital, they did some tests on me and determined that I needed to have open heart surgery to save my life quickly. The endocarditis was essentially destroying my aortic valve and I needed to have surgery to fix it and do it fast. 

So that was around the same time last year that Graymatter and our product Bright Mind really started taking off. And we 7x'd our subscribers in Q4 of last year. We started getting just very, very, very positive feedback.

And so I'm sitting in the hospital recovering from this very existential moment. And getting the feedback that our product is changing other people's lives, it just made a lot of sense to me that I should go all in on this. So this is how I should use my second chance at life. 

It didn't make sense for me just to go back to things, how they were as normal when we had this opportunity to help a lot more people based on some of the feedback we were getting at the time.  

So I ended up deciding to go all in after I fully recovered. So that was in February of this year. And we've been doing it ever since. 

Chase Clymer

That's amazing. And it definitely puts things into perspective. Do you want to sit on Zoom calls all day long? Or do you want to build something and impact some lives?

Jim Phillips

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Did I just go through all that just to get back on the same Zoom calls? It just didn't seem right. 

Chase Clymer

Talk to me a bit about these customers that are having such a great response to the product. And you thought it would be gamers at one point. But talk to me what it actually ended up being. 

Jim Phillips

Yeah. So I've been through a lot of startup companies. And either as a founder or early team, there’s just kind of this rule that you have to have a very niche market when you start. That's what people think. Ultimately, we thought that could be gamers. 

We designed the packaging, the messaging for it. It didn't really end up resonating with them. It was too sophisticated for them. They already had some of their own products that they used for this. They're drinking Mountain Dews and other shit. 

Naturally, through people buying it and looking at customer feedback, we found that people with ADHD are really resonating with the product and it's helping them have an alternative. 

Ultimately, the premise of the company really became to make plant-based alternatives to over-prescribed pharmaceutical drugs, things like Adderall and Vyvanse. We're not against that in any way, but we just feel like there should be an alternative. 

And we could see in the future making something that is an alternative for anxiety like Xanax or for sleep, Ambient. So there's multiple ways that we can take this. But ultimately, just through our customer feedback, we found that it is really helpful for ADHD. 

Chase Clymer

Absolutely. 

And it's always listening to your customers and pivoting to where they want you to be. I think a lot of entrepreneurs need to hear that and learn that. Because what you think is the reason people like your product may not be it. And coming to terms with not necessarily being right but still finding some success. 

I've seen some folks double down on the wrong ICP because that's what they thought it should be. And it's like, at the end of the day, just let the market decide. 

Jim Phillips

Totally. And it has more to do than just that, right? With ads, with anything that you put out there that has an opportunity to collect feedback from your audience, you really just have to use the data over your ego and go with what is working. 

There's been ads that we've created, just statics that I thought were terrible. And they've ended up being the best ad that we've ever had. So I think there's a lot of examples of that where you really got to look at the data if you want to make the best decision. 

Chase Clymer

Oh, yeah. That's perfect. 

Especially, I guess, while you guys are finding success, by no means are you a household name. And I think a lot of young entrepreneurs get caught up in the idea of things being off-brand and then therefore not taking that swing in marketing or advertising. 

“You don't have a brand,” is what I want to say. A $10 million a year business doesn't have a brand, in my opinion. You don't have a brand until people know who you are. Like the Zeitgeist. 

Jim Phillips

Yeah. And the interactions of customers and word of mouth. Speaking about your brand is generally what creates the brand. You can give them the seeds of what you think it should be. But ultimately, other people make your brand when it comes to how you appear in the market. I think that's maybe controversial to say but I think that's what you're getting at. 

Chase Clymer

We've talked a lot about the growth that you've seen over the last year or so. Any lessons learned in 2020? For anything on the horizon as we're looking into 2025. And obviously we're recording this right before Black Friday, Cyber Monday. 

Jim Phillips

Yeah, I view this as just a series of problem solving. Once you get past the getting up and running zero to one, then you have new sets of problems. And it's just maintaining the right attitude every day, getting through the difficulties that you're trying to overcome at that moment.

There's very specific things that I'm working on fixing right now. But ultimately, there's going to be new ones after that. So I think it's just having the right mindset that this is going to be a journey and enjoying it as you go. 

We do have a potential partnership with Limited Supply where they're going to document us going from where we're at now to multi-seven figures in revenue and partnering with an agency called Rovere to do so. 

So we've been getting some help with our media buying some of our other stuff and really just the premise is, how do you grow an Ecommerce business from one that's kind of bubbling like where we're at with a decent amount of revenue, but really take it to an actual brand like we've been talking about. In multiple seven figures in revenue. 

And documenting what happens and those kinds of problems you have to solve along the way. So look out for that. 

And also more flavors, more products. These next couple months, I think, are going to be really, really fun for us. And I'm just excited to have more people try the product. 

Chase Clymer

Absolutely. 

Speaking of trying the product, if I'm listening to this show, you've obviously put a lot of work into it. You're very passionate about it. If I want to check it out, where should I go? What should I do? 

Jim Phillips

Yeah, go to trygraymatter.com. This is what it looks like. And you just mix it up in water and drink it.

People drink it in the morning, people drink it in the afternoon. You can find when you like it best. But yeah, it should give you just some clarity and a decent amount of productivity time to do what you got to do. 

Chase Clymer

Awesome. Jim, thank you so much for coming on the show today. 

Jim Phillips

Thanks for having me. 

Chase Clymer

We can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes. 

You can subscribe to the newsletter at honestecommerce.co to get each episode delivered right to your inbox. 

If you're enjoying this content, consider leaving a review on iTunes, that really helps us out. 

Lastly, if you're a store owner looking for an amazing partner to help get your Shopify store to the next level, reach out to Electric Eye at electriceye.io/connect.

Until next time!