233 | Play Safe Bets But Also Take Risks | with Keith Eshelman

Keith Eshelman  

You can't be afraid to fail because it means you're trying and innovating. And some of its going to work and connect and some of it's going to be a miss.

Chase Clymer  

Welcome to Honest Ecommerce, a podcast dedicated to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. And I believe running a direct-to-consumer brand does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. 

On this podcast, we interview founders and experts who are putting in the work and creating  real results. 

I also share my own insights from running our top Shopify consultancy, Electric Eye. We cut the fluff in favor of facts to help you grow your Ecommerce business.

Let's get on with the show.

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Honest Ecommerce. I'm your host, Chase Clymer. 

And today we're welcoming to the show, Keith Eshelman. He's the co-founder and CEO of Parks Project. 

Parks Project is an outdoor lifestyle brand that exists to inspire people to leave parks better for future generations. 

Keith, welcome to the show.

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah, good to be here. Thanks, Chase.

Chase Clymer  

Yes, thank you for being here. I've been wanting to have you on as a guest for quite some time. And I'm happy to finally have you. 

So quickly, let's let the listeners know that aren't aware. What are the actual products that you guys are selling these days? 

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah, we're an apparel brand that also makes some accessories, headwear, drinkware, and home goods. 

But everything speaks to the mission of the brand and trying to leave parks better, like you just said. And we always try to bring some fun, youthful graphics and fashionable things to the outdoor market.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. So take me back in time where this idea [came] from.

Keith Eshelman  

The idea goes way back. [It] was a personal event for me. And my daughter came into the world 10 years ago. I was taking paternity leave in Big Sur, which is beautiful California park land. 

And I saw a trail closure, and didn't really know much about how trails are maintained or how that could happen. And it got me involved in doing trail work. 

And trail work led to more volunteer work in the parks and doing habitat restoration and things like that. So [in the] early days, Parks Project was actually more a small volunteer group and I was getting friends together and we go do work. 

And thought it was a little bit more intense and fun event aside from let's say, like a beach cleanup. And through spending time in the parks, it grew into... "Hey, well [we could] create products that speak to these projects that we're learning about.” 

“And then the products, we can probably do a little bit better than what was out there in the marketplace.” 

“And we can distribute them in a more kind of holistic manner because a lot of the park products were only sold in park stores.”

“So you combine the mission and social enterprise with the, I'd say, disruption of distribution with an innovative product." 

And it paved the way for Parks Project to be born about 8 years ago.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. Can you walk me through the first iteration of the business, and the first product launch, and what was going on, and what you guys were bringing to market, and how you actually sold it.

Keith Eshelman  

You have year zero early, early products, which we're doing our best. It was more [of] an idea...

Chase Clymer  

(laughs)

Keith Eshelman  

 ...than making the best in class product was for sure. But a lot of the early days, we wanted to really focus on graphics and art as the primary driver of product, putting cool stuff on t-shirts and it was catching on. 

And could you really start a brand out of selling t-shirts basically out of a car and out of a screen printing facility? That's a challenge. 

And I know a lot of people go for that challenge. And I think it's hard to get over the hurdle of selling ones and twos here and there to... 

We got into some big wholesale accounts early on, which gave us some volume, which I think is important for your margins and the health of the business and then being able to also include your Ecommerce business on top of that. 

So [in] the early days, [it] was apparel. And it was almost every year, we would crack a handful of new product categories. Some of those today [are]... 

Candles do really well for us. We bring the scent of parks to your home. We've done puzzles, we do footwear collaborations…

We just did a Teva sandal and also a New Balance shoe a couple of months ago so I'd say we've pretty much done the whole outfit by now, head to toe. 

And [we’ve] done a lot of really innovative accessories and homewares, too.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. How did you guys make that disruptive, as you said, transition to selling these products online? And how did you find the customers where this product resonated with them?

Keith Eshelman  

We thought these brands/national parks, --i.e Yosemite, Yellowstone, Joshua Tree- these brands were just amazing. They... 

I think people would wear a Yosemite product and feel really good about it. It's one of the best places on earth, in my opinion. So what we did is we looked at these places as being a little bit underrepresented in terms of their brands. 

And could we almost elevate the brand with artwork that's going to really, maybe bend reality a little bit because they have such big icons: The geysers of Yellowstone, or the Joshua trees of Joshua Tree or Half Dome of Yosemite, El Capitan, etc? 

So we took that art and went to market in a unique way with younger, more inclusive models. We did it a little bit differently. 

And I also attribute some of that to the fact that we were coming from Los Angeles. And I think a lot of the outdoor industries are in the Pacific Northwest and other places. And we had a little bit different of a perspective. 

Our friends who were artists, did street art and art for rock and roll bands and things like that. So some of that influence was just organic, to who we are, and where we were coming from, and some of the influences that we had in life. And just going for it. 

At the end of the day, that's what all these Ecom startups are doing" Taking a leap of faith and believing in the product, resonating with the customer, and hopefully opening up something new.

Chase Clymer  

Do you remember when... Or did you even have this feeling of "I think we're onto something here."?

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah. Yeah. So there's been a couple of moments where we feel like we're onto something and it continues to this day. 

But early [on], I think, "we're onto something" would be the first batch of product we made. And we put it in a small shop and it was just owned by a friend. It's kind of a favor. 

And a couple weeks later,  he said, "Give me some more of those Point Reyes, Muir Woods, and Yosemite shirts." This was up in the bay area. 

So to me, "I think we're onto something" always is by product moving. It's selling through and creating demand. That's what you want to do as a business: Drive demand and create demand. And to see it keep on coming is just the ultimate sign of success. I

'd also maybe say some of the early press that we got pre-pandemic, you get that validation from a Forbes or a Fast Company, or these other big media, saying that "This is the 'next new thing'."

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Chase Clymer  

Now you guys are really making awesome products there. I'm a huge fan of the brand. I bought some of the shirts. 

You have an in-depth knowledge about buying and even goes down into the different colorways that you're choosing for your products. 

What can you share a bit of the insider knowledge of how to really pick that stuff for your first [business or] for any entrepreneur out there that's about to launch a brand?

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah. You gotta play safe bets and also take risks. So you want to look at what you're doing. And cop some of the  season over season or year over year business and say "We know this moves. Let's make sure we have that in stock." 

But maybe you stay stagnant in one place, other people are going to catch up to you. So some of that does come down to... 

If we were looking at colors of our t-shirts, you need your black, white and gray. But you always have to add some freshness on top of it, and seasonal colors, and what pantones are trending... 

All that's published way far in advance. So I think it's really twofold in securing your business with some almost like anniversary products, but then also pushing it forward. Because you got to stay ahead of the rest of them. 

So we've totally failed in trying various categories. And that's part of it. 

And you can't be afraid of to fail because it means you're trying and innovating. And some of it's going to work and connect and some of it's going to be a mess and you gotta deal with it.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. Buying products is... It's a whole job in and of itself. About every apparel company I know of has a buyer. 

Can you talk about the importance of buying and maybe making those big costly mistakes?

Keith Eshelman  

Sure. Fortunately, half of our business is wholesale. So that gives you an indication where people who are buying and seeing the greater marketplace can give you a little bit of a forecast and saying, "Okay, there was more demand for this versus this." 

Within that function, you can do so much analytical work. And it takes a real trained mind as the business matures, somebody who's done it a couple times over to be able to drive…

That's where all your money is, your money's in inventory. So that's your biggest asset and liability. 

But within the wholesale [industry], buying is basically off of a pre-book so you have some security there. 

But [with] Ecommerce buying, it actually isn't as correlated for us to our wholesale. We get some indication from wholesale buyers at REI [and] Urban Outfitters which gives us good insights. 

But our Ecommerce customers are probably more progressive than the rest of our business. So it really is driving, I guess, the trend of products that we're doing. 

And yeah, it [has] evolved. We humans evolve. Customers evolve. The brand through exposure evolves. 

And I'd say it's gotten probably a little bit younger which is a good thing. And spanning more 20 to 45. 

And there's also the idea that we don't put our customers in a typical demographic. It's more of a way of living. 

It's somebody who wants youthful energy and fun fashionable products that speak to the outdoors and conservation. 

And yeah, we just try to make sure you're in tune with your customer, know who they are, and what they're looking for. And we do a lot of consumer insights to gauge what people are going to want. 

And then you take your formulaic bottoms up and tops down planning to land on something that feels good and it's not too radical of a change and then you set out and buy the inventory.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely, I think it goes back to what you said about placing safe bets and then taking some risks. Obviously, the buyers are going to buy inventory, they know that's going to move. 

But those risks with your more direct-to-consumer customer will buy more interesting colorways that a buyer probably won't take the risk on. And it's amazing to see how those crossover. 

With our audience, there's a lot of founders out there that are just getting their feet wet and getting... Trying to find product-market fit. 

Is there any advice that you have for an entrepreneur in that part of their business that you can remember from your journey?

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah. Some of my staff will call me out on the idea of just turning over rocks all the time, looking for little opportunities. And I think that's what we did a ton of early days: Try, test, learn, iterate, or let it go. 

And always [thinking] "What type of collaboration can we do? What product extensions can we do?" We just launched a TV show with Outside Online. 

Can that correlate to customer acquisition versus a content play versus getting people to just go to PDPs? Because that's what a lot of us are doing. You're trying to simplify that journey. 

So people just buy and have ease of purchase. Yeah, I think it's... 

A lot of it is discovery, and having a curious mind, and being open to pivoting when you need to. You're going to discover success points and then that may be directional. 

You may discover a success point and that's also just like a one time hit because we've seen that as well. So the best thing to do... 

I used to do a lot of pop up shops. I do it myself because I want to talk to people. Staying close to your customer, I think, is the best advice I could give and watching the use of your product. 

And seeing how people style Parks Project goods when they post on their Instagram. And then it's just... 

I think a lot of it is relationship management, too. They're investing in you, how do you return the favor and also invest in them with a good customer experience? 

So I think if you can really pay attention to who's buying the product, and then more importantly, who buys it again in terms of retention of your customers, understand that behavior and use... 

And whether or not they're providing some word of mouth marketing for you. And then if they are, making sure that you're thanking them and returning the favor. 

It doesn't have to be via discounts but that does help. 

But simple things like featuring people and if they have a platform, highlighting their platform, as creators or whatever they are. 

But, yeah, a little bit of advice. I'm still learning every day, to be honest. So I don't think it's good for anyone to ever think the work is done. 

When you've found your product, all you need is money to boost your business, because things will evolve and change.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. That's probably why you guys got featured as one of the Most Innovative Companies of 2022 by Fast Company. Can you talk a bit about that?

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah, that was just a huge moment. For me personally, you asked earlier just about recognition or moments. And growing the business is one thing. 

But I think when somebody looks at the landscape and says, "Okay, here's all these people doing all these things." And you, this company, is worth featuring as the most innovative idea, that's awesome. 

And the idea is still being fine tuned, like I mentioned earlier. And the distribution, it still is moving around. Consumer behavior is moving around. 

So, I do think there's a lot more that we haven't even gotten into, in terms of really bringing people into the core mission and how... 

We want to get you excited about going into parks. We found some people will buy, let's say, a Yosemite t-shirt because they want to go there and they wear it as motivation to plan that trip. 

So yeah, I think there's a whole wellness story about Parks Project and in the sense that if we can get you into parks and get you outside, hopefully, it's going to help contribute to a healthier lifestyle, a sense of place, a sense of connection to nature. 

And through all those experiences, you are probably going to have some reciprocity around wanting to take care of those places and preserve those places for next generations. And that's the whole story and that is my personal story. 

Spending time outside and wanting to take care of these places for the future. So I'm excited to share that story with more and more people. 

And I think it'll make people better and also make the world better too.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely, Keith. 

Now, if there's anyone out there listening that wants to plan a trip to a park like Yosemite, like myself, where do I go to pick up a shirt to be a constant reminder to make those plans?

Keith Eshelman  

Oh, it's a parksproject.us. But I was gonna say. Fly into LAX tomorrow, I'm going to Yosemite so (laughs)

Chase Clymer  

I would love to take you up on that. Keith. Next time I'm out there, I'll let you know. So we can do a day trip.

Keith Eshelman  

Yeah, just hit the shoulder seasons. Watch out for... Parks see a lot of visitors right now. They're trending up, everyone wants to get into a park. If you can, hit the shoulder season. And if you can, maybe go to the off the beaten track features as well. 

Because if we're using Yosemite as an example, everyone ends up in Yosemite Valley and it gets crowded. And I think that takes away from the visitor experience. 

So there's a lot more to see, a lot of places to go, and we do have a Park Finder on our website, too. 

So you can play around with that and see where you want to go parking.

Chase Clymer  

Absolutely. Keith, thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing your story. 

Keith Eshelman  

Alright. Thanks, Chase. 

Chase Clymer  

We can't thank our guests enough for coming on the show and sharing their knowledge and journey with us. We've got a lot to think about and potentially add into our own business. You can find all the links in the show notes. 

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Until next time!